Why are our engines so expensive?

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32wildbilly
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Re: Why are our engines so expensive?

Post by 32wildbilly » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:35 pm

gnat wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:40 pm
32wildbilly wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:14 pm


You are being just too logical and reasonable! Let me wallow in my misery for a while longer. :roll:
Oh you can still wallow away. I'm just pointing out that the markup isn't purely greed all the time (my crush washer example above is nothing but), but there is definitely a greed portion to it too.

At least we aren't Lamborghini owners. Talk about price gouging and they are sharing parts with the R8.
See...See there is always a silver lining! I feel much better now. I'm sure Lambo, Ferrari and Veyron (plus many other) owners would be laughing their butts off about my lamenting. :cry:

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Re: Why are our engines so expensive?

Post by FRUNKenstein » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:39 pm

gnat wrote: The parts themselves don't cost much to manufacture once the process has been setup. So part of it is that there is a much bigger market for a Chevy engine so they can spread the R&D costs over a wider area which helps reduce costs. Posche engine upgrades have a much smaller market so you have to charge more to try to make up your startup costs.
Ha - you said "Chevy" and "R&D" in the same sentence.
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Black-Out
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Re: Why are our engines so expensive?

Post by Black-Out » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:40 pm

Meh, I think you're over generalizing the price difference between a $25,000 high tech 3.6 liter Porsche engine with Variable valve lift, Timing, Variable geometry intake manifold, Variable geometry turbine technology on the turbo cars, and Fuel cooling built right into the a/c system and fuel rails on the Turbo compared to a basic Chevy V8. There's 1,000 times more tech in the little flat 6 than in the 383 you priced out presumably from a Tahoe. That engine is also modified to make that much power. If you move up to the LS6/LS7/LQ9/LS9 High output and boosted engines you'll quickly find out they aren't cheaper at all. They range from about $22,500 to $33,000 if you are looking for a built beast. Cheap is relative. I could find a Cheap Porsche engine for $4,000 or $5,000 dollars too. It just won't be the correct one with all the tech that makes your 911, what the factory intended for it to be.
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gnat
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Re: Why are our engines so expensive?

Post by gnat » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:17 pm

FRUNKenstein wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Ha - you said "Chevy" and R&D" in the same sentence.
"What color plastic piece can we add with no actual benefit will these mullet headed rednecks buy?" counts as R&D too :P

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Re: Why are our engines so expensive?

Post by AnthonyS » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:46 am

The old SBC is a simpler design. Every part is easier and cheaper to make and there are far fewer parts as a whole. Assembly is also easier.

The LS is more costly but a huge leap forward. It’s way cheaper than a flat six though.

I’m seriously considering selling my 91 ZR-1 to get an 02-04 Z06 to abuse. It’s the 405 hp, 3100 lb car decent suspension easy button. I don’t wamt to abuse the ZR-1 amd it’s a bloated pig in comparison.

And who cares how frugal some rich people are? Life isn’t a two time thing.... have fun.

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Re: Why are our engines so expensive?

Post by 5chn3ll » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:09 pm

Well, a lot of those high-tech inventions in the flat six were necessitated because of the insistence on continuing to use a flat six. A single-cam pushrod V8 is a dinosaur...just like a flat 6.

As far as building monster output: building boost on a SBC is always going to be cheaper than building boost on a flat six. A $30,000 built race motor might be putting down 1000 horsepower; a $30K Raby motor is going to put down what, 450? That's not even apples and oranges...more like apples and steaks.
Black-Out wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:40 pm
Meh, I think you're over generalizing the price difference between a $25,000 high tech 3.6 liter Porsche engine with Variable valve lift, Timing, Variable geometry intake manifold, Variable geometry turbine technology on the turbo cars, and Fuel cooling built right into the a/c system and fuel rails on the Turbo compared to a basic Chevy V8. There's 1,000 times more tech in the little flat 6 than in the 383 you priced out presumably from a Tahoe. That engine is also modified to make that much power. If you move up to the LS6/LS7/LQ9/LS9 High output and boosted engines you'll quickly find out they aren't cheaper at all. They range from about $22,500 to $33,000 if you are looking for a built beast. Cheap is relative. I could find a Cheap Porsche engine for $4,000 or $5,000 dollars too. It just won't be the correct one with all the tech that makes your 911, what the factory intended for it to be.
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32wildbilly
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Re: Why are our engines so expensive?

Post by 32wildbilly » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:23 pm

5chn3ll wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:09 pm
Well, a lot of those high-tech inventions in the flat six were necessitated because of the insistence on continuing to use a flat six. A single-cam pushrod V8 is a dinosaur...just like a flat 6.

As far as building monster output: building boost on a SBC is always going to be cheaper than building boost on a flat six. A $30,000 built race motor might be putting down 1000 horsepower; a $30K Raby motor is going to put down what, 450? That's not even apples and oranges...more like apples and steaks.
Black-Out wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:40 pm
Meh, I think you're over generalizing the price difference between a $25,000 high tech 3.6 liter Porsche engine with Variable valve lift, Timing, Variable geometry intake manifold, Variable geometry turbine technology on the turbo cars, and Fuel cooling built right into the a/c system and fuel rails on the Turbo compared to a basic Chevy V8. There's 1,000 times more tech in the little flat 6 than in the 383 you priced out presumably from a Tahoe. That engine is also modified to make that much power. If you move up to the LS6/LS7/LQ9/LS9 High output and boosted engines you'll quickly find out they aren't cheaper at all. They range from about $22,500 to $33,000 if you are looking for a built beast. Cheap is relative. I could find a Cheap Porsche engine for $4,000 or $5,000 dollars too. It just won't be the correct one with all the tech that makes your 911, what the factory intended for it to be.
My point was hp to hp between a V8 and Flat6 when compared to pricing for rebuilt replacements is ridiculous and I stand by that observation. There were comments above concerning availability of cores and sheer numbers produced making things for the V8 cheaper, which has validity. Still...WTF?

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Re: Why are our engines so expensive?

Post by Black-Out » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:35 pm

32wildbilly wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:23 pm
5chn3ll wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:09 pm
Well, a lot of those high-tech inventions in the flat six were necessitated because of the insistence on continuing to use a flat six. A single-cam pushrod V8 is a dinosaur...just like a flat 6.

As far as building monster output: building boost on a SBC is always going to be cheaper than building boost on a flat six. A $30,000 built race motor might be putting down 1000 horsepower; a $30K Raby motor is going to put down what, 450? That's not even apples and oranges...more like apples and steaks.

My point was hp to hp between a V8 and Flat6 when compared to pricing for rebuilt replacements is ridiculous and I stand by that observation. There were comments above concerning availability of cores and sheer numbers produced making things for the V8 cheaper, which has validity. Still...WTF?

Ok, you stand by that. Then the obviousness of the displacement, iron block, and relatively low tech has to be taken into account. To put it in perspective, if you find a 3.6 liter anything made from GM relative to the engine you use in your example,(meaning when it was made time wise) would you agree that the closest it would be is within 250hp of of the V8 in question? Most older 2.8/3.0/3.5 V6 engines from GM made in the past barely managed to make 180hp. How much do you think that engine is worth? Again, it's ignoring the tech to get a 3.6 liter non conventional engine to produce 320 V8 horsepower and torque without forced induction. That's no small feat. Now for most American made V8 engines the recipe is proven. Has been for what? Nearly 60years? Eventually when it comes to raw power there isn't a replacement for displacement. The other elephant in the room is the fact that a Porsche isn't for the feint of heart wallet wise. The most obvious aspect of being the owner of any European premium sports car, no matter the marque, is the expense. There is no real point in comparing a very basic American V8 to a ridiculously complex European Flat six and then complain about how the tech heavy small displacement engine comes up 100+ hp short and cost $10k-$15K more. Like I said previously, The tech heavy versions of the domestic V8's are not cheap either. But to have one of these cars and complain about the cost of replacing the engine is silly. You'd have been better off buying a 98' Camaro SS. That's not to insult you by the way, it's just to make a point. You have to know that with a marque like this comes expense in the event of service and repair. You'd pay a Corvette Tax at a chevy dealer to maintain a ZO6 just the same. I just liken this to buying a used Ferrari F355, and then asking why an LS2 Pontiac GTO makes more power for far less money. The short answer is: 3.5liters is smaller 6.0liters, and without boost, compression ratios higher than the stratosphere, or exotic fuels the smaller naturally aspirated engine will always make less power and less torque.

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32wildbilly
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Re: Why are our engines so expensive?

Post by 32wildbilly » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:36 am

Black-Out wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:35 pm
32wildbilly wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:23 pm


My point was hp to hp between a V8 and Flat6 when compared to pricing for rebuilt replacements is ridiculous and I stand by that observation. There were comments above concerning availability of cores and sheer numbers produced making things for the V8 cheaper, which has validity. Still...WTF?

Ok, you stand by that. Then the obviousness of the displacement, iron block, and relatively low tech has to be taken into account. To put it in perspective, if you find a 3.6 liter anything made from GM relative to the engine you use in your example,(meaning when it was made time wise) would you agree that the closest it would be is within 250hp of of the V8 in question? Most older 2.8/3.0/3.5 V6 engines from GM made in the past barely managed to make 180hp. How much do you think that engine is worth? Again, it's ignoring the tech to get a 3.6 liter non conventional engine to produce 320 V8 horsepower and torque without forced induction. That's no small feat. Now for most American made V8 engines the recipe is proven. Has been for what? Nearly 60years? Eventually when it comes to raw power there isn't a replacement for displacement. The other elephant in the room is the fact that a Porsche isn't for the feint of heart wallet wise. The most obvious aspect of being the owner of any European premium sports car, no matter the marque, is the expense. There is no real point in comparing a very basic American V8 to a ridiculously complex European Flat six and then complain about how the tech heavy small displacement engine comes up 100+ hp short and cost $10k-$15K more. Like I said previously, The tech heavy versions of the domestic V8's are not cheap either. But to have one of these cars and complain about the cost of replacing the engine is silly. You'd have been better off buying a 98' Camaro SS. That's not to insult you by the way, it's just to make a point. You have to know that with a marque like this comes expense in the event of service and repair. You'd pay a Corvette Tax at a chevy dealer to maintain a ZO6 just the same. I just liken this to buying a used Ferrari F355, and then asking why an LS2 Pontiac GTO makes more power for far less money. The short answer is: 3.5liters is smaller 6.0liters, and without boost, compression ratios higher than the stratosphere, or exotic fuels the smaller naturally aspirated engine will always make less power and less torque.

William-
Hard to argue with this logic. If/when mine needs an engine I will put in an RND rebuild which seems the best bang for the buck when considering the time equation as well. I am fortunate that I can do that. You are right these cars are not for the weak of heart or pocketbook. In the market for a new Type R(I know DT "Butt-ugly") but interestingly fast and fun to drive. I would dump the 996 but can't. I'm either going to build another garage or store something. The wife says no more in the driveway. Cars are additive.

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Re: Why are our engines so expensive?

Post by OceanBlue2000 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:56 am

Backup switch from Pelican:
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/ ... SVSVSI=901 ($44 bucks)

Backup switch from Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0066 ... UTF8&psc=1 ($12.57)

Not to rag on Pelican, as the backup switch is more expensive elsewhere for the genuine Porsche part, but come on.

I'd agree that our engines (and some parts) are expensive because race-derived anything is expensive. But there's no reason for a simple electrical switch to be almost $50 when I can get it elsewhere for $12. As owners, it is assumed we both have money to burn and will spend it on genuine Porsche parts in all cases.
Mike
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