Racetrack Stuff

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808Bill
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Re: Racetrack Stuff

Post by 808Bill » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:45 am

DTMiller wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:47 am
Here's a super fun thread on Rennlist (dammit):

https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and- ... ility.html
Joe's a DICK!

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DTMiller
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Re: Racetrack Stuff

Post by DTMiller » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:59 am

808Bill wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:45 am
DTMiller wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:47 am
Here's a super fun thread on Rennlist (dammit):

https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and- ... ility.html
Joe's a DICK!
It does appear that way, assuming we have all the facts.
2002 Guards Red Targa, Fister exhaust, H&R Sport Springs, semisolid motor mounts
1997 MX-5 track car
Friday at the Track, Chin Trackdays, SCCA, SCDA, Audi Club Potomac, TrackDaze HPDE Instructor
June 16, 2017 Funland GoKart Champion (6:13 p.m. main event)
Willing to risk life for track time

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808Bill
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Re: Racetrack Stuff

Post by 808Bill » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:21 am

DTMiller wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:59 am
808Bill wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:45 am


Joe's a DICK!
It does appear that way, assuming we have all the facts.
Based on his reasoning as to why he hasn't payed the balance...

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Cuda911
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Re: Racetrack Stuff

Post by Cuda911 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:54 am

Interesting thread, for sure. In other news, I 'm now a DE, TT, and AX instructor. But, I will only take students with HANS. Could write an essay on this topic. DT, what's your thoughts on that? I 'm lobbying our club to buy HANS that we can rent to students at a nominal fee.
Mike
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DTMiller
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Re: Racetrack Stuff

Post by DTMiller » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:25 am

Cuda911 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:54 am
Interesting thread, for sure. In other news, I 'm now a DE, TT, and AX instructor. But, I will only take students with HANS. Could write an essay on this topic. DT, what's your thoughts on that? I 'm lobbying our club to buy HANS that we can rent to students at a nominal fee.
Congrats on the additional certification! I know PCA (with whom I generally don't run with or instruct with) has adopted new minimal standards and requires HNR with all 5/6 pt harness installs. It's certainly the right call on safety and it's something I consider when I have a passenger (unless it's gnat, then let's do this) and I scale it back an extra half notch (again, with one pants wetting exception).

From a liability standpoint, the known safety improvement isn't debatable. If someone dies from a BSF in the right seat (especially) of a car with harnesses, there is a strong argument that that's negligence. Add in the fact that the organization and the driver have a high likelihood of having greater knowledge about the risks than the passenger and you have a situation where courts start stripping away waivers and then really bad things.
Edit to add: I worked on a tobacco case when I was a law talkin' guy where the plaintiff won because he lost his legs due to vascular disease he claimed was a result of smoking. That's not a specific risk that is warned against on the packaging or generally known to the public. Is losing your legs less of a thing than dying from lung cancer which was a known, assumed and warned against risk? You betcha. Did that matter to the judge or the jury? Nope. A BSF is a new and different way of dying in cars brought about by the creation of the harness system + helmet. I could see a court system saying sure he knew he could get hurt or die in an accident when he signed the waiver which he didn't read, but he didn't know that this specific risk of a BSF existed when he got in the instructor's car which ended up in the wall when the 944 in front of it puked out all its oil at the end of the fastest straight on the track, so here's all the money.

The idea of loaner HANS is a good one except for the need for helmet posts which aren't hard to install in 2015 helmets but can be in 2010 helmets, some of which need to be drilled to install the posts. Again, that's not all that hard but we've started to make the program a little more complicated than, say, a loaner helmet program where you grab one that kinda fits and off you go.

So, I think it is probably a good thing because it increases the likelihood that DEs continue to exist on this earth in their current format but there is IMMENSE value in having students go for rides with instructors to allow the student to wet themselves in public (gnat's case) or experience what the instructor is trying to demonstrate (everyone else ever).
2002 Guards Red Targa, Fister exhaust, H&R Sport Springs, semisolid motor mounts
1997 MX-5 track car
Friday at the Track, Chin Trackdays, SCCA, SCDA, Audi Club Potomac, TrackDaze HPDE Instructor
June 16, 2017 Funland GoKart Champion (6:13 p.m. main event)
Willing to risk life for track time

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gnat
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Re: Racetrack Stuff

Post by gnat » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:55 am

That wasn't fear. I was trying to cool off that day!

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Einsteiger
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Re: Racetrack Stuff

Post by Einsteiger » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:43 am

So are there standards for the H.A.N.S. units? They range from $500 - $1500.
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Cuda911
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Re: Racetrack Stuff

Post by Cuda911 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:56 pm

All HANS devices are certified. Typically they must be recertified every 5 years.

DT, we require that all individuals in a car have equivalent seat restraints. So, if you the driver wears a harness, the passenger must too. As of this track season, anyone in a seat with a harness must also use HANS. Since students rarely, if ever, have HANS devices, many instructors use their stock lap belt when instructing, since both the driver and passenger are allowed to use stock belts. It is not permitted for the driver to use a harness and the passenger to wear a stock belt, or vice versa. Basically, it is related to the liability scenario you mention above.

No way am I going to use the stock belts and compromise my safety just to carry a student. Therefore, I will not instruct students that can not also wear a harness in the passenger seat. Several other instructors have the same policy. That's why I want our club to get some HANS devices for students to rent. As you mention, the attachment points are easy and quick to temporarily mount on student's helmets during the DE events, assuming that they have the mounting holes. Most students have new helmets, so I don't think we will run into many issues there.
Mike
Board of Directors, Treasurer-elect, AX Instructor - PCA-SDR

'68 Ford Custom 500; '70 Plymouth Cuda; '71 Ford Econoline; 73 Porsche 914 1.7, '74 Porsche 914 1.8; '74 Suzuki TC185; '86 Suzuki GS450L; '88 Subaru GL104WD Turbo Ltd Edn;; '88 Subaru XT; '91 Lexus ES250; '93 Jeep Wrangler, '99 Porsche Boxster, '03 Turbo VW Beetle; '03 Porsche Boxster; '03 Porsche Carrera C2; '07 Porsche Cayman, '12 Porsche 991 S, '14 Porsche Cayman, & a mishmash of other vehicles. And, my Felt mountain bike.

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Re: Racetrack Stuff

Post by gnat » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:59 pm

Your students get seats and seat belts????

DT said I'd be perfectly safe sitting on that milk crate...

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DTMiller
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Re: Racetrack Stuff

Post by DTMiller » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:29 pm

gnat wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:59 pm
Your students get seats and seat belts????

DT said I'd be perfectly safe sitting on that milk crate...
And here you are perfectly fine.
2002 Guards Red Targa, Fister exhaust, H&R Sport Springs, semisolid motor mounts
1997 MX-5 track car
Friday at the Track, Chin Trackdays, SCCA, SCDA, Audi Club Potomac, TrackDaze HPDE Instructor
June 16, 2017 Funland GoKart Champion (6:13 p.m. main event)
Willing to risk life for track time

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