Bore Scoring! Who knows for whom the bell tolls...

User avatar
32wildbilly
Never gonna run around and desert you
Posts: 5758
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:46 pm
Location: Kneebraska

Re: Bore Scoring! Who knows for whom the bell tolls...

Post by 32wildbilly » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:54 am

b3freak wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:39 am
32wildbilly wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:31 am

Yeah, I know who to call and it ain't Ghost Busters! I am not pissed, disappointed but not pissed. Stuff happens and I am fortunate to be able to afford the proper repairs considering I'm an old retired guy on Railroad Retirement! :( Bad/lame jokes are always welcome! :lol: The part I am not looking forward to is trying to explain this to the wife, however, she knows my Peter Pan tendencies can get expensive! After all she lived through my sprint car days. :shock:
Man, I'm not sure what I'd tell you to do in the mean time. I would imagine not driving the car would be worse than actually burning off the fuel. I think I remember Raby saying it's a good idea to run two cans of Seafoam on a low tank of Top Tier gasoline in order burn off some of the carbon that cakes up around the edges of the piston crown? Maybe he has some other ideas while you decide how to proceed.
That is interesting #6 piston crown looks like you could eat off of it. My guess is the leaking fuel is keeping it clean. Indi didn't send me #5 crown pic but said #6 is much cleaner. I am having the Indi proceed with the injector-plugs-coil change anyway to prevent further fuel leakage, if that is the problem.
Never gonna make you cry...

User avatar
B3DAWG
OG (First 100 Outposters!)
Posts: 1659
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Gawga DAWG Country

Re: Bore Scoring! Who knows for whom the bell tolls...

Post by B3DAWG » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:57 am

32wildbilly wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:54 am
b3freak wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:39 am

Man, I'm not sure what I'd tell you to do in the mean time. I would imagine not driving the car would be worse than actually burning off the fuel. I think I remember Raby saying it's a good idea to run two cans of Seafoam on a low tank of Top Tier gasoline in order burn off some of the carbon that cakes up around the edges of the piston crown? Maybe he has some other ideas while you decide how to proceed.
That is interesting #6 piston crown looks like you could eat off of it. My guess is the leaking fuel is keeping it clean. Indi didn't send me #5 crown pic but said #6 is much cleaner. I am having the Indi proceed with the injector-plugs-coil change anyway to prevent further fuel leakage, if that is the problem.

That can't hurt, but your next problem (as you probably know) is the skirt coating will start to flake off and then that metal will circulate throughout the motor. You really need to check your oil filter for iron.

User avatar
32wildbilly
Never gonna run around and desert you
Posts: 5758
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:46 pm
Location: Kneebraska

Re: Bore Scoring! Who knows for whom the bell tolls...

Post by 32wildbilly » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:11 am

b3freak wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:57 am
32wildbilly wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:54 am

That is interesting #6 piston crown looks like you could eat off of it. My guess is the leaking fuel is keeping it clean. Indi didn't send me #5 crown pic but said #6 is much cleaner. I am having the Indi proceed with the injector-plugs-coil change anyway to prevent further fuel leakage, if that is the problem.

That can't hurt, but your next problem (as you probably know) is the skirt coating will start to flake off and then that metal will circulate throughout the motor. You really need to check your oil filter for iron.
As I understand it the skirt coating contamination, lack of oil and flaking is what causes the scoring so that is probably in process. I have done my last several oil and filter changes and filter has been spotless. Magnetic plug also shows very little stuff, no chunks or growths. Seriously the piston/ cylinder design seems to be wonky in my uneducated opinion.
Never gonna make you cry...

User avatar
B3DAWG
OG (First 100 Outposters!)
Posts: 1659
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Gawga DAWG Country

Re: Bore Scoring! Who knows for whom the bell tolls...

Post by B3DAWG » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:15 am

32wildbilly wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:11 am
b3freak wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:57 am


That can't hurt, but your next problem (as you probably know) is the skirt coating will start to flake off and then that metal will circulate throughout the motor. You really need to check your oil filter for iron.
As I understand it the skirt coating contamination, lack of oil and flaking is what causes the scoring so that is probably in process. I have done my last several oil and filter changes and filter has been spotless. Magnetic plug also shows very little stuff, no chunks or growths. Seriously the piston/ cylinder design seems to be wonky in my uneducated opinion.
Just make sure you're wearing clean underwear while out in it. You just never know! ;) Mama would be proud. :D

Renn Meister
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:42 pm

Re: Bore Scoring! Who knows for whom the bell tolls...

Post by Renn Meister » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:15 am

32wildbilly wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:54 am
b3freak wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:39 am

Man, I'm not sure what I'd tell you to do in the mean time. I would imagine not driving the car would be worse than actually burning off the fuel. I think I remember Raby saying it's a good idea to run two cans of Seafoam on a low tank of Top Tier gasoline in order burn off some of the carbon that cakes up around the edges of the piston crown? Maybe he has some other ideas while you decide how to proceed.
That is interesting #6 piston crown looks like you could eat off of it. My guess is the leaking fuel is keeping it clean. Indi didn't send me #5 crown pic but said #6 is much cleaner. I am having the Indi proceed with the injector-plugs-coil change anyway to prevent further fuel leakage, if that is the problem.
The fuel will keep the crown clean at early stages of failure only. After the cylinder/ ring seal is compromised the combustion chamber contamination from the crankcase will make the piston get dirty, and caked with soot very quickly. Having excess oil in the cylinders promotes LSPI, which can actually give the engine a brief period of higher performance, as it effects the combustion process, and power output. This is why "engines run fine" even while experiencing this mode of failure.

With the car being a 2005 C4S why stop at 3.8L? With the F6 program a "Stage 1 plus" is virtually the same money, but has much more to offer @4.0L.
I reviewed RND. Downside is then your Indi has to put it together and do all kinds of initial startup and preliminary break-in. I'm thinking I would rather have Jake do that.
All that stuff is required for a positive end result. One goof for the wrong installer, and the engine is compromised. You have to respect the people that want the work to be done correctly.

Best of luck!

User avatar
B3DAWG
OG (First 100 Outposters!)
Posts: 1659
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Gawga DAWG Country

Re: Bore Scoring! Who knows for whom the bell tolls...

Post by B3DAWG » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:40 am

Renn Meister wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:15 am
32wildbilly wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:54 am

That is interesting #6 piston crown looks like you could eat off of it. My guess is the leaking fuel is keeping it clean. Indi didn't send me #5 crown pic but said #6 is much cleaner. I am having the Indi proceed with the injector-plugs-coil change anyway to prevent further fuel leakage, if that is the problem.
The fuel will keep the crown clean at early stages of failure only. After the cylinder/ ring seal is compromised the combustion chamber contamination from the crankcase will make the piston get dirty, and caked with soot very quickly. Having excess oil in the cylinders promotes LSPI, which can actually give the engine a brief period of higher performance, as it effects the combustion process, and power output. This is why "engines run fine" even while experiencing this mode of failure.

With the car being a 2005 C4S why stop at 3.8L? With the F6 program a "Stage 1 plus" is virtually the same money, but has much more to offer @4.0L.
I reviewed RND. Downside is then your Indi has to put it together and do all kinds of initial startup and preliminary break-in. I'm thinking I would rather have Jake do that.
All that stuff is required for a positive end result. One goof for the wrong installer, and the engine is compromised. You have to respect the people that want the work to be done correctly.

Best of luck!
Holy crap... this guy just put us on the straight and narrow Wildbilly! ((bowing)) Definitely knows his better than most! RennMeister, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is...

What is the best advise for Bill and his 996 in the meantime? Should he park it? Drive it... what do you recommend. Of course, I would recommend getting it to Flat6 immediately, but is there anything he can do to protect the car in the meantime?

btw - And, welcome to the Outpost Renn Meister!

User avatar
32wildbilly
Never gonna run around and desert you
Posts: 5758
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:46 pm
Location: Kneebraska

Re: Bore Scoring! Who knows for whom the bell tolls...

Post by 32wildbilly » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:42 am

Renn Meister wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:15 am
The fuel will keep the crown clean at early stages of failure only. After the cylinder/ ring seal is compromised the combustion chamber contamination from the crankcase will make the piston get dirty, and caked with soot very quickly. Having excess oil in the cylinders promotes LSPI, which can actually give the engine a brief period of higher performance, as it effects the combustion process, and power output. This is why "engines run fine" even while experiencing this mode of failure.

With the car being a 2005 C4S why stop at 3.8L? With the F6 program a "Stage 1 plus" is virtually the same money, but has much more to offer @4.0L.

All that stuff is required for a positive end result. One goof for the wrong installer, and the engine is compromised. You have to respect the people that want the work to be done correctly.

Best of luck!
Thanks. You sound knowledgeable!? I understand the RND requirements and trust my Indi but I trust Flat6 more on the whole process. Appreciate your comments on the stage 1 and 4.0.
Never gonna make you cry...

User avatar
DTMiller
"Special"
Posts: 821
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:50 pm
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Contact:

Re: Bore Scoring! Who knows for whom the bell tolls...

Post by DTMiller » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:49 am

Just jumping in here to say that Renn Meister is a confirmed expert and we are very lucky to have him here.

Sincerely,
Someone with moderator powers
2002 Guards Red Targa, Fister exhaust, H&R Sport Springs, semisolid motor mounts
1997 MX-5 track car
Friday at the Track, Chin Trackdays, SCCA WDCR Novice Classroom Instructor, SCDA, Audi Club Potomac, TrackDaze HPDE Instructor
June 16, 2017 Funland GoKart Champion (6:13 p.m. main event)
Willing to risk life for track time

User avatar
sweet victory
OG (First 100 Outposters!)
Posts: 616
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:55 pm

Re: Bore Scoring! Who knows for whom the bell tolls...

Post by sweet victory » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:59 am

Really sorry to hear about the scoring Billy! I've contemplated my contingency plan for an engine failure, and to be honest I still don't know 100% what I would do. I think I would rebuild the engine myself. It would still be expensive, but it would be a huge opportunity to learn something new. I've chatted with Bisimoto several times about his twin turbo build, and he's done nothing but flog that thing in the desert. It's very refreshing since I had only gotten M96 rebuild info from Rennlist prior to that. (Basically all you've got is that sketchy Polish dude, Raby, and a short block) Just know you probably have more options than you realize.


The leaking injector issue is something that is preventable. I think a fuel pressure leak down test is something DIY'ers should look up how to do on YouTube. Snap On has a new digital pressure tester; it's awesome. You can use it to check cylinders, fuel systems, etc. I'm talking to my dealer if it will also replace manometers for checking AOS's. Cost is roughly $500, but when you consider the price of a decent manometer and fuel pressure tester; it's a no brainier.

User avatar
32wildbilly
Never gonna run around and desert you
Posts: 5758
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:46 pm
Location: Kneebraska

Re: Bore Scoring! Who knows for whom the bell tolls...

Post by 32wildbilly » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:06 am

sweet victory wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:59 am Really sorry to hear about the scoring Billy! I've contemplated my contingency plan for an engine failure, and to be honest I still don't know 100% what I would do. I think I would rebuild the engine myself. It would still be expensive, but it would be a huge opportunity to learn something new. I've chatted with Bisimoto several times about his twin turbo build, and he's done nothing but flog that thing in the desert. It's very refreshing since I had only gotten M96 rebuild info from Rennlist prior to that. (Basically all you've got is that sketchy Polish dude, Raby, and a short block) Just know you probably have more options than you realize.


The leaking injector issue is something that is preventable. I think a fuel pressure leak down test is something DIY'ers should look up how to do on YouTube. Snap On has a new digital pressure tester; it's awesome. You can use it to check cylinders, fuel systems, etc. I'm talking to my dealer if it will also replace manometers for checking AOS's. Cost is roughly $500, but when you consider the price of a decent manometer and fuel pressure tester; it's a no brainier.
Plus RND, Vertex and others...
Never gonna make you cry...

Post Reply